Chris & Julie Petersen's Genealogy

John Winner

Male Abt 1755 -


Personal Information    |    Notes    |    All    |    PDF

  • Name John Winner 
    Born Abt 1755  of Middletown Township, Pennsylvania, Ohio, United States Find all individuals with events at this location 
    Gender Male 
    Died Great Egg Harbor, Gloucester, New Jersey, United States Find all individuals with events at this location 
    Person ID I3047  Petersen-de Lanskoy
    Last Modified 27 May 2021 

    Father Isaac Winner,   b. Bef 1733, of Middletown Township, Bucks, Pennsylvania, United States Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. Abt 1781, Middletown Township, Bucks, Pennsylvania, United States Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age > 48 years) 
    Mother Rebecca 
    Family ID F470  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family 1 Hannah Carr,   b. 10 Sep 1759, Little Egg Harbor Township, Ocean, New Jersey, United States Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. 9 Aug 1778, Mount Holly, Burlington, New Jersey, United States Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 18 years) 
    Married 1 Apr 1776  Northampton, Burlington, New Jersey, United States Find all individuals with events at this location 
    Last Modified 28 May 2021 
    Family ID F1643  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family 2 Millicent Mapes,   b. 14 May 1752, , Gloucester, New Jersey, United States Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. 14 Jul 1806, Great Egg Harbor, Gloucester, New Jersey, United States Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 54 years) 
    Married Aft 1778  of Great Egg Harbor, Gloucester, New Jersey, United States Find all individuals with events at this location 
    Last Modified 28 May 2021 
    Family ID F1644  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

  • Notes 
    • RESEARCH_NOTES:
      1. I include some general comments about John Winner, the earliest of the Winners in Great Egg Harbor. Its location is on the New Jersey Atlantic coast about 60 miles south of Dover township. There is no apparent direct interaction between the two earliest Egg Harbor and Dover Winner men (John 1775 and Isaac 1783), but that does not preclude a connection back to Bucks county. (Exception: See Gary Coon's email in a separate note below that possibly associates some Doughtys with the Dover Winner who moved to Ohio.) I have already established Dover Isaac being Isaac Jr., son of Isaac Sr of Buck County and that he married Hannah Searl in 1776. Interestingly, and perhaps significantly, Egg Harbor John first appears in the 1775 Egg Harbor tax returns; however, we see a John in Northampton Twp. (and Abraham Winner) in the 1773-4 tax returns - John then basically disappears from Northampton. Most importantly, in a separate note above, I have transcribed a 1787 deed between Abraham "of Northampton" and John "of Great Egg Harbor." So Abraham and John probably have a strong relationship and both may be of the same generation as Dover Isaac if in fact not all brothers. (See separate note above of NJ Supreme Court 1783-85 case involving Abraham and Isaac Winner in Burlington Co. vs. Jacob Shinn, which seems to establish probably Dover Isaac and Abraham as close relations if not brothers.) They may all then be brothers or at least very close cousins. From what I have found so far, no one has really done a good job of outlining the connections at Bucks county. Perhaps my theory of Northampton Abraham, Good Egg John, and Dover Isaac will prove out more certainly in the future as we are able to make more links; meanwhile, here is reference material on John (in addition to what I have in other separate notes herein):
      A. From my own research as into early NJ Winner probates detailed elsewhere in these notes, I construct the following Egg Harbor groups:
      Family #1 (Egg Harbor):
      -John Winner and Millicent Mapes (-1806), dau. of Joseph Mapes
      -Amos
      -John, Jr. (-1823) and probable wife Abigail (probate administrator)
      -Possibly others (will states "all my children")
      Family #2 (Egg Harbor): [This would be son of John Jr. in family #1.]
      -John (-1839) and probable wife Harriet (probate administrator)
      Family #3 (Egg Harbor): [This would be son of John Jr. in family #1.]
      -Thomas D. Winner (-1868) and wife Ann
      -Margaret (-bef 1868)
      -George S.
      -Mary
      -Thomas D. (under age 14 in 1868; d. 1893)
      -Margaret (under age 14 in 1868)
      B. FHL films 851702 and 854018 are Quaker minutes involving Great Egg Harbor filmed from originals at Rutgers University. Various films deal with various localites. Unfortunately, this collection is someone's poorly written worksheets that are sketchy and hard to read. There is a page at the beginning of the films warning that these are not original records, but secondary work papers that should be used cautiously. Evidently the compiler was working from some source and upon studying it, I find it helpful in reconstructing the family of John Winner who died 23 Oct 1823 ("John, Jr., who I have shown as the son of John and Millicent (Mapes) Winner). It is titled "Winner, Somers Pt., Sculltown." It gives us the following descendancy chart for which I may be off on some dates from inability to read the author's "scrawl":
      John Winner, d. 23 Oct 1823, married May 9, 1812 to Abigail Doughty (b. 1789, d. 20 Feb 1876 at age 86.7.24, who married second ___ Holdcraft. Children:
      -Daniel, d. 2 Nov [Mar. or May?] 1827.
      -James, d. 29 Aug 1836.
      -Capt. John, d. 6 Nov (Dec) 1837.
      -Thos. D., b. 1 Apr 1818, d. 13 May 1828 [Apparently something is off on these dates.] Married first Marg't D. Scull, b. 25 [May?] 1829, d. 25 [May?] 1864 (dau. of Richard Scull, d. ? Feb 1856 and [unreadable], b. ? July 1797, d. 18 Nov 1872. Married second Ann ( ) Edwards, a widow. Children of first marriage:
      -Geo. s. Winner, b. at Part Richmond. Associated with Bargaintown, Atlantic Co., 4-1/3 mi. N. of Somer Pt.
      -Marg. md. [unreadable: ___ Gawson or Garmore?].
      -Amelia. Had granddaughter Miss J. G. Winner.
      From what I gather on the Internet, Abigail Doughty's second husband was William Holdcraft. Apparently there was an association with the Quakers considering the source in which this information is located. More on this in the next notes below.
      C. Rootsweb Winner-L Archives forum "Abigail Doughty Winner Holdcraft"
      a. 20 May 2007 from Kris ___ :
      "I have been doing research on this family for some time... Abigail is the mother of Harriet James Winner who first married John D. Winner, Jr. (often with the appellation Captain). Harriet James' mother was Sarah James. Her daughter was Abigail. I think that the Scull Bible records show that Harriet was a good friend of the family, which is why the first child was named after her. Often in the middle of the century, a very sentimental time, children were named for good friends and not always for relatives. Also very sentimental, Harriet James Winner wrote a poem to commemorate her husband's tragic death (he was thrown overboard in a storm), which left her free to marry her good friend's husband after Mary Blackman died. Abigail did indeed marry first John Winner, sometimes Jr and sometimes Sr. depending on when the documents identifying him were prepared. John Winner and Abigail did have the five children listed, the two boys died young, the remaining three (Thomas, Amelia and John) were under the care of their mother and divided their father's property after some legal finagling. John Sr. had at least two siblings, Joseph and Amos. I am getting a lot of info on Joseph, not much on Amos, because he may have died young as well. Their father was John Winner that married Millicent Mapes. I agree with others that have shared info that he first married Hannah Carr and had a son Samuel who died very young as did Hannah. There is a very strong connection with Abraham of Northampton, I think (but have no proof) that he was the elder John's brother. My connection with this particular group of Winners is probably through this Joseph from Great Egg Harbour who married Millicent Caveller (Cavalier) in 1803 and about whom I know nothing. She may have died and he may have married again - I am trying to pinpoint how it fits together as I don't have any evidence of his children. I am "assuming" that he had a son named Joseph, who was born in 1822 in NJ and lived most of his life in Williamstown - I know that I am connected to the Williamstown Joseph. I have photographs of Abigail et al's gravestones that I took recently on a visit to NJ..."
      b. 20 May 2007 from Karen Winner :
      "I'm Karen Winner and live in Philadelphia. ...on the Somers Point/Pleasantville Winners... One thing I have is about Amos, son of John Winner and Millicent Mapes. He married Mary Brackney (from Burlington) September 5, 1805. There are also military records for him which say he was in the War of 1812 and in the War with Algiers in 1815 (which I never heard of before!). He was discharged July 10, 1817 with a "surgeons certificate of disability." I have a note that's just an idea - that two of Amos' and Mary's children might be daughters (1) Susanna who married a Joseph Githens and (2) Milicent. Don't know where I might have gotten this idea. I have something about John Jr. complaining in court about his brother Amos and that he did not pay for land in Great Egg Harbor that came from their father. Amos was out of state, but hears about the suit and comes back and sells the land in question through the sheriff to John in 1812. This came from "Gloucester Deeds" - reel #13 in the NJ archives. I also have very little information about the Joseph you mention - and nothing about Millicent Cavaller. There are some deeds that involve John. He was postmaster at Somers Point in 1811. He was a judge in 1814 - and some other things. You probably have all of that. There was also a court case where John Winner and Japhet Townsend sue Joseph Winner for court costs - in 1816. I have been wondering if the John who was married to Hannah Carr and then M. Mapes might have been the son of Abraham Winner in Mt. Holly. Though, I've got nothing that makes me sure about that. Or John could be his brother, as you say. John married Hannah Carr in 1776 and Abraham married Mary Thatcher in 1769. The closeness in dates might mean that they are brothers. At Swarthmore Quaker Archives I found a card that lists the children of Caleb Carr and his wife Sarah. There were 8 kids listed. Mary, Job, Samuel, Isaac, Hannah, Samuel, Sarah & Rebeckah. What's interesting about this is that there are two Samuels. The first Samuel was born in 1754 and lives until 1832. Hannah was born in 1759 and died in 1778. But the second Samuel, listed after her, has no dates listed for birth or death. This could mean that this was Hannah's son and they both died in childbirth? Though when I first saw this card I took it to mean that the child ended up living with her parents. Why I thought that I don't know! Also, I have a John Winner who married a Polly Headly in Mt. Holly in 1811. Have no idea who this John is, though."
      D. Will of the father of Millicent (Mapes) Winner: 1787, Jan. 25. Mapes, Joseph, of Great Egg Harbor, Gloucester Co., husbandman; will of Wife, Mary, the northeast side of plantation where I live, from the Bay up to the great road from James Somer's line to the old ditch in the Cove. Daughter, Melicent Winner, the plantation where I live, after her mother is done with it, during her life, and then the plantation and a piece of old cedar swamp at the foot of Blackman's Branch, to my grandson, Joseph Winner. Daughter, Melicent, the rest of real estate. Granddaughter, Mary Mapes, daughter of my son, Edmund, deceased, 100, when she is 21. Executors-wife, Mary, and John Winner, my son-in-law. Witnesses Samuel Risley, Samuel Smith, William Murphey. 1787, Sept. 3. Codicil. My wife is to have a good living out of my estate. Witnesses-Noah Smith, John Somers. Proved Dec. 6, 1787. 1787, Nov. 13. Inventory, 543.11.6, made by Noah Smith and John Somers.Lib. 29, p. 100. (The part of Joseph Mapes plantation that fronted on the bay may be a clue as to where "Winner's Landing" was.)
      Joseph Mapes was a very active and important member of the Egg Harbor Society of Friends.

      2. New Jersey probate for Gloucester Winners:
      i. 2627H: Melicent Winner, wife of John Winner of Great Egg Harbor, Gloucester. Will dated 18 Apr 1791. Mentions real estate left to son Amos Winner, husband John Winner, "all my children" (unnamed). Mentions land given her by her father Joseph Mapes. Signs as "Melscent Winner." Witnesses: Daniel Leeds, John Dole, and David Scull(?). Codicil 1 Dec 1793 replaces son Amos if he dies with son John Winner; witnessed by Sam'l Delancey, John Dole, and Joseph Sharp. Affidavit of executor dated 12 Aug 1806.
      ii. 3493H: John Winner Jr., "late of township of Egg Harbor," Gloucester Co. Inventory dated 27 Oct 1823. Adminstrator: Abigail Winner who signs as "Abbigail Winner." Proved 1 Nov 1823. [Son of John and Millicent.]
      iii. 2973H: William Winner of Waterford Twp., Gloucester Co. Inv. appraised 15 Oct 1813. Administrator Jesse Winner's affidavit dated 26 Oct 1813. [Probably sons of Abraham Winner of Northampton and nephews of John and Millicent.]
      iv. 28A: John Winner of Egg Harbor, Atlantic Co. Inv. dated 5 Dec 1839 and proved 24 Dec 1839. Administratrix: Harriet Winner. All inventory items are farm related. [Son of John and Abigail, g.son of John and Millicent.]
      v. 417A: Thomas D. Winner of Egg Harbor, Atlantic Co. Will dated 6 Mar 1868 and proved 13 Jun 1868. Inventory dated 13 Jun 1868 and includes standard household and office items. Executor David B. Somers. Mentions: wife Ann Winner (receives 1/3), son Thomas Winner (1/3 of 2/3), "little daughter Margarett Winner" (1/3 of 2/3), and son George and daughter Mary (shares 1/3 of 2/3). Will mentions "his four children"; makes wife Ann guardian of children Thomas and Margaret who are under age 14. Mentions his desire for tombstones for him and "Margaret Winner deceased." Executor: "friend David B. Somes." Witnesses: George Anderson and Elijah Townsend. Affidavits signed 13 Jun 1868. [Son of John and Abigail, g.son of John and Millicent.]
      vi. 1304A: Thomas D. Winner of Atlantic Co. Inventory dated 22 Jul 1893. Administrator George S. Winner.

      3. The case for a relationship of the early New Jersey residents Isaac Winner of Dover Township in Monmouth Co., Abraham Winner of Northampton Township in Burlington Co., and John Winner of Great Egg Harbor in Gloucester Co. to Isaac Winner Sr. of Bucks Co., Pennsylvania. Prepared 22 Nov 2011 by Kerry Petersen .
      There are two basic groups of Winners circa the Revolutionary War and post era in New Jersey. The oldest are the Winnes of northern New Jersey who derive from the Dutch immigrant Pieter Winne of New Amsterdam and eventually Albany, New York. Their genealogical descendancy is conclusively presented in detail in "The Dutch Settlers Society of Albany Yearbook," v. 40 (1964-1966), pp. 6-28. A branch of this family ended up in upstate New Jersey and we easily follow them in New Jersey probate and other documents. They retained their Dutch roots even in the era of our discussion. They are all accounted for and they remain distinctly separate from our group of Winners. Unfortunately, some of the northern records indiscriminately interchange the surnames Winne and Winner for these families, which has led to confusion. An early Winner researcher from the 1950s, Enid Willardson, spent a lifetime trying to seek a connection from our Winners back through the Winnes, but failed in so doing even after amassing over 3000 Winne names. I have personally reviewed her workpapers after her decease and the tentative connection she contrived to make does not stand up to scrutiny and more modern research. Regrettably it was picked up by the old LDS Ancestral File based upon her submission and has since bled through to many unsuspecting user-submitted online databases. It is not my purpose to detail the Winnes; however, before linking our three early Winners under discussion, it was critical to eliminate the Winne family as a possible ancestry. Suffice it to say that this was done.
      This then directs us to look to neighboring Bucks County for the source of our Winners. Any study of early New Jersey records in the three counties we are discussing quickly leads to the conclusion that there were no Winners reported there before our three Winner men. They came from elsewhere then New Jersey. Lets review first Isaac of Dover since his link to Bucks county is easiest to assemble. My descendancy comes from Isaac. We will then link Isaac to Abraham and then Abraham and John.
      Isaac WINNER of DOVER:
      The following is circumstantial, but very compelling nevertheless. First, I made comprehensive search of all early Winners in both New Jersey and Bucks co., Pennsylvania (abstracts available in the notes of the earliest Winner in my PAF files). With such a comprehensive overview of these early Winners and by process of elimination, I have found a pattern which I believe establishes and follows the ancestry of the earliest Isaac Winner of Dover Twp., Monmouth Co., NJ. - who is our first ancestor in that area. This is my thinking:
      Isaac's son Jonathan (who married Sarah Predmore) in the 1850 census in Brown Co., OH, indicates he was born abt. 1778 in Pennsylvania - this is even though we know he was in Dover Twp. circa 1812. Jonathan's birth with him being the first born of Isaac would logically lead us to a marriage there for about 1776. (See separate research into the descendants of Isaac Winner, who also include: Ohio residents John Winner and Hester Ann Mason, Isaac Winner and Mary Catherine Powell, Samuel Winner; California resident George K. Winner; and Monmouth residents Rueben H. Winner and Amy Winner who m. 1. Charles Soper and 2. Jacob Creby/Creeley.)
      Another link to Pennsylvania is found with Isaac's son, Isaac (bro. of Jonathan), who is reported to have married his wife Mary Catherine Powell in Philadelphia, PA, per the published biography of Isaac and Mary's son John Leopold Winner (see their notes for transcript).
      We also have a personal family history memoir from Isabel (Lambert) Winner, wife of James4 Winner (Benjamin3, Jonathan2, Isaac1) who states that the Winners were from Pennsylvania, probably Bucks county. (Source: 20 Jun 2004 email from descendant Gary Coon who descends from Arnold Coon, Clara Wilding, Leoni Winner, then James.)
      Interestingly, we find some records in Bucks county (and New Jersey) that fit the pattern.
      A. "New Jersey Marriage Records, 1665-1800," by William Nelson, Marriage Licenses from New Jersey Colonial Documents: "Winner, Isaac, Bucks, PA, and Hannah Searl, Bucks, PA, 1776 Nov. 9." (Familysearch, source film 888709, vol. W, p. 474.) Note that this date fits perfectly with Jonathan's birth discussed above while establishing a link with Bucks County and NJ. In doing an Internet search for this couple on 20 Nov 2011, absolutely no hits were found - this means that this particular couple has never been linked into a family tree or written up on the web even though the marriage record clearly exists. Many with Quaker backgrounds would "marry out of meeting" which would explain a marriage license over the border for two Bucks Co. residents (i.e. a trip to Las Vegas for a no-question marriage).
      B. We find only one Isaac Winner in Bucks Co., PA, in the early records. Note however that all of a sudden in 1778/1779 we see both an Isaac Sr. and Jr. together in Middletown. Isaac Jr. shows as married, which concurs with the 1776 marriage discussed above. It also shows Isaac Jr. being in Pennsylvania at the time of the birth of Jonathan in 1778. References to Isaacs in Middletown return to one after 1779 then disappear after 1781. Perhaps Isaac Sr. died thereafter, but more importantly we see our Isaac in the Dover Twp., NJ tax records beginning 1783.
      a. "Tax Records 1693-1778" (year, township, name, ₤ value, tax s-d) for Bucks Co.:
      -1754, Middleton, Isaac Winner, 10, 1-8, married.
      -1757, Middleton, Isaack Winner, 6, 1-0, married.
      -1760, Middleton, Isaac Winner, 4, 1-0.
      -1762, Middleton, Isaac Winner, 4, 1-0.
      -1778, Middleton, Isaac Winner Sr., 4, 2-0, married.
      -1778, Middleton, Isaac Winner Jr., 4, 2-0, married.
      b. 1779 Tax List: (Bucks co., PA)
      -Isaac Winner, Sen., Middleton.
      -Isaac Winner, Jun., Middleton.
      c. Pagenweb Bucks Co. accessed 21 Nov 2011 "Middletown Township Property and Tax Records 1779," transcribed by Patricia Woodruff January 2001 (Name -Acres-Horses-Cattle-Servants), married men:
      -Isaac Winner, Jr.-0-0-1-0 -Isaac Winner, Sen.-0-0-1-0 -Samuel Winner-0-0-1-0
      d. Pagenweb Bucks Co. accessed 21 Nov 2011: "Middletown Township Property and Tax Records," transcribed by Laura VanSant 2003 (Name-Acres-Horses-Cattle-Servants) - all Isaacs disappear after 1781:
      -1781: Isaac Winner, weaver, 0-1-1-0
      -1782: Samuel Winner, 0 0 2 0
      -1783: Sam'l Winner 2.10 [Not the assessment - probably the tax amount of 2 sh. 10 d.]
      e. There is an early Isaac Winner in Dover Township; no other Winners are shown in Dover in the same time period. Ancestry.com shows:
      -Oct. 1783 Tax List: Isaac Winnir
      -June 1786 Tax List: Isaac Winner
      -"Name on a petition, 4 Mar 1786, to the Legislature from freeholders and inhabitants of part of Dover Township in Monmouth County asking that a new county be formed because of the distance they have to..."
      -June 1789 Tax List: Isaac Winner
      -June 1793 Tax List: Isaac Winner
      -June 1796 Tax List: Isaac Winner
      -June 1797 Tax List: Isaac Winner
      Summary: I believe that we are seeing our Isaac, his wife Hannah Searle, and Isaac's father, Isaac, in the above records. Until proven otherwise, I am considering this our ancestral line.
      Abraham WINNER of NORTHAMPTON (aka Abraham of Mount Holly):
      Abraham is not my direct line so I don't have as much research on his descendants; however, much has been published on Abraham himself. First let's establish what is more or less known from solid sources as well as the Internet about him and then I will introduce my own additional documentation that I believe links Isaac to Abraham.
      A. First record of Abraham per FHL book 974.961 V2c "Burlington County Marriages," by H Stanley Craig (1932, rep. 2003), pp. 95, 233, 248: Abraham Winner - Mary Thatcher, 9-13-1769. Variant from FHL film 1320671, it. 5, the book "Historical and Genealogical Miscellany, Data Relating to the Settlement and Settlers of New York and New Jersey," by John E. Stillwell (Baltimore, 1970), p. 72, "Register of St. Mary's Church, Burlington, N.J.": "Married - Abraham Winner & Mary Hatcher, both of Burlington County, were lawfully married, Septem'r 3d 1769, at Mountholly." From the Internet it appears St. Mary's was an Episcopal Church. It is probable that this was an intentional marriage outside of Quaker meeting similar to Isaac's.
      B. "Revolutionary Census of NJ," by Kenn Stryker-Rodda; List I (1773 & 1774): Abraham Winnor - Northhampton, Burlington Co.
      C. Abraham (Winnor and Winner): Northampton, Burlington Co. Various Lists: 1774, 1787.
      D. From "Old Inns and Taverns," by Charles Boyer, p. 49: "Another early tavern keeper was Abraham Winner, whose house was located on the north side of Gaskill's Lane, now Woodlane, near the old Quaker Meeting House. On April 22, 1776, he gave a mortgage to Joseph Butterworth on this property,vwhich had probably then been discontinued as a tavern."
      E. Rootsweb accessed 21 Nov 2011: "Burlington County NJ - NJGenWeb; Early Tax List - Northampton Township, 1779. Only Winner shown is Abraham Winner (no Isaac or John): 90 acres of land valued at 25, 2 horses, 2 cattle, 1 hog, total whereon to levy 27/5/0, amount of certainty 0.66, tax carried out 1.22. (Note that there is also a Caleb Carr on the same tax list with 250 acres; I believe that the father of Hannah Carr who married John Winner in 1776 was Caleb Carr.)
      F. Undocumented from Internet accessed 21 Nov 2011: "By Jan 1780 he was purchasing foragemaster."
      G. Internet accessed 21 Nov 2011: New Jersey Historical Society, "Calendar of New Jersey wills, administrations, etc.," Vol. 5, p. 314: "1780, Oct. 27 - Adm'r - William Cramer, of Little Egg Harbor. Fellowbondsmen - Joseph Biddle, of Springfield, and Abraham Winner, of Northampton; all of Burlington Co. The said William Cramer is appointed Adm'r of the estate of John Little, left unadministered by Sarah Little, during the minority of James, the son of said John Little."
      H. Internet Usgenweb by Patricia M. Bergener (fmlyhstry@verizon.net) 1999 accessed 21 Nov 2011: "Early New Jersey Marriages - Extracts": #557; Cornelius McAnley of Springfield in the County of Burlington, and Abraham Winner... [bound to]... William Livingston, Governor... 500 pounds... 1 Feb 1784. ... Contract of Marriage between Cornelius McAnley... and Mary Johnson... [w] Jos: Read.
      I. From the Internet: The following list for Winner Surnames in NJ -Colonial Records, CD 136 Dec 94 ver. GRS v 3:03: Abraham Winner, Burlington Co., NJ voters 1787, pg. 80.
      J. Online Archive.org "Documents Relating to the Colonial, Revolutionary and Post-Revolutionary History of the State of New Jersey," accessed 21 Nov 2011: "1788, Nov. 15. Borden, Joseph, Jr., of Burlington Co. Int. Adm'r - Robert Dougherty. Fellowbondsman - Abraham Winner; both said Co."
      K. FHL book 974.961 R28h "Burlington County, New Jersey, Deed Abstracts - Books A, B and C," by Richard S. Hutchinson: "Book D, p. 1, 4 Mar 1794, concerns Commissioners making a division of "property late of William Smith, deceased ... of the City of Burlington [who] died intestate. The division takes over 33 pages and names several dozen adjoining property owners including "Winner's Ferry, land of Abraham Winner and wife on 28 February 1788."
      L. Undocumented from Internet accessed 21 Nov 2011: "He died in what is to be believed to be the Alms House in Philidelphia and is buried in the same graveyard as Joseph and Elizabeth Winner."
      M. I include the following just so I can refute it. From the Internet accessed 21 Nov 2011: "Gloucester County Historical Society - Oct, 9, 1969 from Ernistene Siegel, 1906 Watrous Ave, Tampa, FL 33606: "...there was an Abraham Winner of Mt. Holly, who was a tavern keeper there before the out break of the Rev War, and who is still there in 1787. This Abraham Winner was a descendant of Capt. James Winner, who was in Colonel McCrea's Regiment in the Revolutionary War. As a note, Captain James Winner was in Col. McCrea's regiment when they returned Levies, Fort Edward July 21, 1780. A return of Levies raised from Saraghtoga Regiment. And Now in actual service at Fort Ann under the command of Capt. Sherman, John McCrea, Colo. August 11th, 1780. No. 3092 Return of Levies from Colonel McCrea's Regiment. Fort Edward July 21 the 1780. <http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/ny/albany/military/revwar/service/mccrea.txt>" My comments: there is no document saying our Abraham is the son of Capt. Winner. Basic research shows that Col. James McCrea's local militia group was of Albany, New York and did not involve men from so far away as New Jersey since Col. McCrea's battles were in upstate New York. The Levies only mention a Capt. Winner, not James Winner. Albany was the seat of the Dutch Winnes, which is not our group. Changing the subject, the author Ernestine Siegel has published work on her ancestor James Winner who served in the Rev. War as part of the Bucks County Regulators. She has determined that he was a son of the same Isaac Winner Sr. to whom we linked Isaac Winner Jr. James is also father of the Lycoming Co., PA, Winners. Miss Siegel has published a pamphlet and a book on the subject which I am still reviewing. She does name the wife of Isaac Sr. as Rebecca ___.
      Now to discuss ties of Abraham and Isaac - I found the following:
      A. In the New Jersey State Archives in Supreme Court cases, I found the following which I believe is significant. We have already surmised above that Dover Isaac was almost certainly the son of Isaac Sr. of Middletown, Bucks Co., and that he married in 1776, left there shortly after 1779, and then shows up in 1783 in Dover. All of a sudden for just a very short time an Isaac shows up in Burlington as plaintiff with Abraham in a court case that begins in 1783. There is no Isaac before nor after in the area and the timeframe dovetails right into the sweet spot of 1779 to 1883 when Isaac is between Bucks Co. and Dover Township. The court cases:
      -39304: Isaac and Abraham Winner vs. Jacob Shinn 1783-85 held at Burlington, Burlington Co.
      -44555: Isaac Winner. Poor copy and I can't read any of the details. It is dated 1783 and is probably the same Isaac as above.
      B. This statement is found on the Internet but without any source. We can't use it for documentation, but it is prescient: "Abraham had relatives in Bucks Co. who were Quakers - Isaac Sr and Jacob Winner."
      Summary: We know Abraham did not have a son named Isaac at that time and it would be unusual to be partners with a cousin, so a conclusion of a brotherly connection is not out-of line. We could always argue it wasn't Isaac Jr., but Isaac Sr. who disappears from the scene in Bucks Co. in 1781 - but either way it ties Abraham to Isaac Sr.
      John WINNER of GREAT EGG HARBOR:
      There is much good documentation on this John and not necessary to repeat everything here. He apparently had two marriages.
      The first marriage is per "New Jersey Marriage Records, 1665-1800," by William Nelson: "Winner, John, Northampton, and Hannah Carr, Northampton, 1776 April 1." According to "The Carr Book," by Arthur R. Carr, 1947, Hannah was b. 10 Sep 1759 to Caleb Carr and she died 9 Aug 1778 in Mt. Holly (Northampton) in childbirth when their son Samuel was born 9 Aug 1778. The Carr book says he died three days later. The marriage was apparently out of Quaker meeting because we find in FHL book 974.961 K2m v.1 "Early Church Records of Burlington County, New Jersey," by Charlotte D. Meldrum, a reference to only one Winner in the entire book, which is in the Minutes of Mount Holly Monthly Meeting. "5th da, 4th mo, 1777... Hannah Winner, produced a paper acknowledging trouble of mind, for going out in marriage." We also find Hannah's father Caleb with 250 acres in the same area in which Abraham (but no other Winners) live (per Rootsweb accessed 21 Nov 2011: "Burlington County NJ - NJGenWeb; Early Tax List - Northampton Township, 1779"). The Carr book reports indicates he died 11 Sep 1783 and his buried next to his daughter. In any case this all places John Winner in Northampton just prior to his being in Great Egg Harbor.
      John's second marriage is to Millicent Mapes for whom we have on record a will (and codicil) naming her three sons. We also have on record a will for her father Joseph Mapes in which he names his dau. Millicent Winner, his son-in-law John Winner, and his grandson Joseph Winner. Joseph Mapes was prominent in the Quaker community of Great Egg Harbor. John and Millicent has three sons: John, Joseph, and Amos - for whom we have marriage information. FHL film 1425085, it. 6, "Gloucester County, New Jersey, Marriage Records," by H. Stanley Craig, 1930:
      -Joseph Winner and Millicent Caveller, 2-2-1803.
      -John Winner and Abigail Doughty, 5-9-1812.
      -Not reported for Amos. [Per Internet: He married Mary Brackney (from Burlington) September 5, 1805. There are also military records for him which says he was in the War of 1812 and in the War with Algiers in 1815. He was discharged July 10, 1817 with a "surgeons certificate of disability."]
      -(As a side note, the same marriage records also has "Samuel Winner and Mary Thorn, 3-30-1813." Could it be John's son Samuel from his marriage to Hannah Carr who did not perhaps die three days after his mother as "The Carr Book" would have us believe?)
      We also have a couple more records that place John Winner in Northampton with Abraham:
      A. "The Genealogical Magazine of New Jersey," v. 37, p. 75, "New Jersey Rateables 1773-1774, Northampton Twp. of Burlington Co.":
      -"John Winner sm"
      -"Abraham Winner 315; 6c"
      B. "Revolutionary Census of NJ," by Kenn Stryker-Rodda; List I (1773 & 1774):
      -Abraham Winnor - Northhampton, Burlington Co.
      -John Winnor - - Northhampton, Burlington Co.
      Most significantly the following record was found a very specific record that ties Northampton Abraham and Great Egg John. Note that we also gain a name of Mary for Abraham's wife. FHL book 974.961 R28h "Burlington County, New Jersey, Deed Abstracts - Books A, B and C," by Richard S. Hutchinson, p. 41: "Book B, p. 35 - Abraham Winner to John Winner." "28 May 1787 - Abraham Winner … Township of Burlington … New Jersey and Mary his Wife ... [sold to] … John Winner of Great Egg Harbour … Gloucester … Whereas the Said Abraham Winner … [by deed from Joseph Butterworth and Sarah his Wife dated 29 May 1780 and from Samuel Shinn dated 1 February 1776 became seized of two certain parcels of land in the Township of Northampton … (for 260 pounds) … All these his two … Parcels ... of Land …. (adjacent land owners or names - Jacob Hilliard, Edward Hilliard, Edward Andrew, Nathan Gaskill, Cripps Estate) … (3 acres, 2 rods, 23 perches) … The other Piece … [adjacent land owners or names - Side of the Great Road called Gaskill's Lane, Hannah Belcher, Johanna Brow)] … (7 acres, 7 perches). Memorandum - (Before the execution of the above deed, Abraham Winner excepts two Small Pieces, the one sold by him to Abel Harker and the other to Isaiah Bishop Which is Within the above bounds.); (Signed - Abraham Winner, Mary Winner; witnesses - Charles Ellis, Daniel Ellis.)"
      Summary: It is apparent that John shows up in the records at Northampton in conjunction with Abraham from 1773/4 to 1778. He then disappears by 1779 from the area because only Abraham shows up as the only Winner in the 1779 tax schedules (this evidently is just before Isaac shows up). We then find our John in Great Harbor per Great Egg Harbor, Gloucester Co., various lists for 1774, 1780, 1781 (Winer), 1782, 1783, 1785 (Winners), 1785, 1786, 1790, 1791, 1792, 1793, 1794, 1795, 1796, 1797, 1802. It appears that he had a short presence in Great Egg Harbor shortly in 1774 and then continuously from 1780 on. The 1787 deed between Abraham and John with their residences certainly confirms a family relationship.
      Summary:
      The marriages of Abraham in 1769, John in 1776, and Isaac in 1776 would indicate they were of the same generation and probably in that order of age. Interestingly all three appear to have married "out of meeting" from the Quakers. The connections and timelines seem to be more than coincidence. Isaac's apparent connection with Isaac Sr. in Middletown township, Bucks County, PA, would then argue all three must be tied together as probable brothers to most likely Isaac Winner Sr. Of course we cannot rule the taxman may have just called both Isaacs Sr. and Jr. to differentiate them in the locality and one of the other Middletown men could be their father. We see these potential Middletown individuals from tax lists to whom I add my comments:
      -Isaac Winner, married, 1754, 1757, 1760 & 1762 listed next to Joseph, 1778 and 1779 as Sr. [By process of elimination, Isaac is the only one seemingly left standing for a potential father.]
      -Samuel Winner, single, 1757, 1760 "Sam'l Winner at Joh. Winr.," 1762, 1778 married and next to John, 1779. [Samuel marries too late to be the father of our three Winners. Probably son of John Winner since they both disappear after 1778. A Samuel shows up as a son in John Winner's 1791 will who is probably this Samuel.]
      -John Winner, married, 1757, (not listed in 1762), 1778 listed next to Samuel. [This is most likely the John who died and left a will in 1791. (1791, John Winner, Lower Makefield, will, #2356. John Winner of Lower Makefield Twp., Bucks, weaver. January 3, 1791. Proved January 23, 1791. Sons Samuel and John exrs. Ch. Rachel wife of Jacob Watson, Didwell wife of John Smith, Samuel, John, David, Joshua, and David [Moses?] Winner. Gdsns. Levi and John Terry sons of Joshua Terry. Wits: James Moon, Richard Neeld, Peter Vanhorn. Witnesses Amos Gregg and Amos Gregg, Jr.)]
      -Joseph Winner, 1760 and 1762 listed next to Isaac. [Could this be Isaac Sr.'s father since he drops out of the record ca. 1762 and is close to him in the tax schedules? We also find the name Joseph used among Abraham's and John's sons.]
      -Isaac Jr, married, 1778. [This is our Isaac that goes to Dover, NJ. and who married 1776.]
      -James Winner, single, 1778. [Ernestine Siegel identifies James as a son of Isaac Sr.]
      So from process of elimination, Isaac Winner Sr. appears to be the probable father. Subject to more research, Joseph Winner could perhaps be Isaac Sr.'s father or perhaps a brother.
      There are two other interesting marriages reported in the 1770s for perhaps other close relations or even brothers to Abraham, John, and Isaac that will need closer scrutiny with further research:
      A. FHL film 1320671, it. 5, the book "Historical and Genealogical Miscellany, Data Relating to the Settlement and Settlers of New York and New Jersey," by John E. Stillwell (Baltimore, 1970), p. 72, "Register of St. Mary's Church, Burlington, N.J.," p. 88: "Married - Sept. 29, 1774, Jacob Winner & Elizabeth Hellings." Note this is the same church in which Abraham was also married in 1769. The book "New Jersey Marriage Records, 1665-1800," by William Nelson, "Marriage Licenses from New Jersey Colonial Documents" adds a residence: "Winner, Jacob, Bucks, PA, and Elizabeth Helling, Bucks, PA, 1774 Sep 29." I have not seen ongoing records thereafter for Jacob in New Jersey, so I suspect he married "out of meeting" and returned to Pennsylvania. We do find a Bucks Co. tax record in 1778, "Lower Makefield, for Jacob Winner, married." There was another Jacob in Southampton Twp., Burks Co. who appears on a 1772 tax list then in probate: "1778, Jacob, weaver, Southhampton, adm., #1563"; couldn't find actual probate, but was administration only. A couple of loose unsubstantiated Worldconnect entries show that Jacob who married Elizabeth Helling was son of a Jacob in Bucks co. - probably should consider the possibility that Southampton Jacob could be father of Lower Makefield Jacob. No other entries in Bucks Co. for a Jacob after 1778. A more likely explanation and one that Ernestine Siegel mentions in her book is that these two Jacobs were in fact the one and the same with Jacob then dying relatively young. His age would be surmised from the earliest entry with him being at least 21.
      B. "New Jersey Marriage Records, 1665-1800," by William Nelson, "Marriage Licenses from New Jersey Colonial Documents": "Winner, Amos, and Rebeca Cooper, 1779 May 1." We see the name Amos later used for a son of John Winner of Great Egg Harbor; this would point to perhaps some kinship. I have found no other pre-1800 entries for Amos in either New Jersey or Bucks Co., PA.
      I don't pretend yet to have sorted out all the very early pre-1800 Winners in Bucks County, but we should look a little further into the very earliest ones to see if we can someday connect things in the middle to Isaac Sr. These are all the entries I can find so far that are pre-1760. There is probably some relationship but I can't yet tell if they were early brothers or fathers/sons.
      A. We know from probate records that the earliest Winner we have knowledge of in Bucks County (and specifically Middletown Twp.) is John Winner, weaver, Middletown, 1748 probate adm., #628 (administration only with no will). He is probably also be the same John who was a witness to a deed in 1731. Some Internet chat reports John's wife was Didwell, but I have not yet searched for substantiation for this. We do see the John who was a weaver (just like 1748 John) and died in Lower Makefield Twp. in 1791 having a daughter who he named Didwell. (See note above.)
      B. We know from the following that there was a Jacob Winner that died before 1753, married as a second husband to Sarah ___ (first husband William Hooper. Jacob could very well be a brother to 1748 John.
      a "Deeds 1684-1763":
      -Joseph Smith of Bristol Twp., 1753, to Mary Martin, widow, property sold in 1743 to William Hooper, who died intestate and sheriff sold land to Mary Martin and Sarah Winner, formerly Sarah Hooper.
      -Sarah Winner, widow of Jacob, deed 1753 to Mary Martin.
      b. "Will abstracts 1685-1785": 1753, Sarah Winner of Bristol Twp., son Anthony Hooper. Joseph Smith, executor.
      C. "Will abstracts 1685-1785": 1754, Mentions land in Newtown on which "Joseph Winner lives after decease of wife." Principal of will, David Lavell, document does not say relationship but doesn't appear related.
      As for the other pre-1800 Bucks Co. Winners, I have an abstract of all the entries I have been able to find to date for any researcher that would like to analyze, find patterns, or sort it out.

      4. Two bad connections have been copied and passed on through miscellaneous LDS Archive family group sheets, LDS Ancestral File, and submitter-based Internet bases. Apparently no one has taken time to really check them, and so new research shows these need to be corrected. One shows Benjamin Winner born in New Jersey about 1801 to John Winner and Hester Ann Mason and a death after 1860. We know this link to be erroneous since Benjamin was the son of John's brother Jonathan (birth and death dates are okay). See separate note above for reasons for this correction. The other bad connection is to link John who married Hester as a son to John and Millicent (Mapes) Winner of Egg Harbor City area of Gloucester Co. (now Atlantic Co.) This should also be corrected to show John as the son of Isaac Winner of Dover Twp., Monmouth, and brother to Jonathan Winner. See below for more on this.
      The following is a copy of email dated 4 Jul 2004 from Gary Coon which provides detail on the Winners of Egg Harbor, NJ. I concur that John Winner (wife Hester) is not a son of John (wife Millicent). I believe, however, that John Winner was the son of Isaac Winner of Dover Township:
      "I've looked back and rechecked some notes about the Winners of Great Egg Harbor. I am convinced that John Winner (wife Hester Mason) is NOT the son of John Winner and Melscent Mapes of Great Egg Harbor.
      Will of Joseph Mapes: 25 Jan 1787. Leaves property to wife Mary, dau. Melicent Winner, and grandson Joseph Winner. Exec. wife Mary and son-in-law John Winner.
      Will of Melscent Winner: 18 Apr 1791, to son Amos, all lands bequeathed by father. Use of it by husband John Winner. Codicil 1 Dec 1793: Should son Amos die before age of majority without issue, said lands to son John Winner. Will proved 12 Aug 1806.
      To me this means that son Joseph born before 1787, son Amos before 1791, and son John between 1791 and 1793. I figure that Joseph got his inheritance directly from grandpa so Melicent was giving hers to Amos. But then John arrived and she had to think of him too. Strange that she wouldn't divide it between Amos and John.
      John Winner married Abigail Doughty 9 May 1812 in Gloucester Co., NJ. (John Jr., I believe.)
      Land transactions continue after this point for all John Sr. and his sons distinguishing between John Sr. and John Jr. They continue for John Jr. up till 1820.
      Will of John Winner, Jr.: inventoried 1 Nov 1823 in Egg Harbor. (I haven't seen the estate document.)
      Abby Winner [wife of John Jr.] shows up in the 1830 census with no husband. I believe she remarries a Mr. Veneble sometime after.
      So it seems clear that John Winner (born 1786) of Clermont Co., OH, is not the son of John Winner of Great Egg Harbor. This John was married to Hester Ann Mason. Her father Joseph was living in that area of Gloucester Co. One of his sons, Case, stayed there and died in the county. So John did have ties to Gloucester Co.
      Now John Winner Sr. of Great Egg Harbor did have ties to the Winner boys of neighboring Burlington Co. Going over the tax records, land records, wills, and marriages of this group, there could be seven brothers: Abraham, Jesse, Thomas, William, John, Samuel, Septimus. (It is said that traditionally a Septimus is the seventh son.) These guys show up together on wills, land deals, and such. Ex: Septimus and William owed his father-in-law's estate for three years rent. Jesse and John are mentioned elsewhere as owning money together. I believe John married Hannah Carr on 1 Apr 1776. She died in childbirth in 1778. He married Melicent Mapes (widow of John Coates) afterward settled in Great Egg Harbor with her family (if not already living there).
      So John [Winner of Clermont Co., OH] could have been the son of one of them. I've ruled out John, Septimus (he moved to Butler Co., OH, but his son John is said to be the one ending up in Logan co., OH), William died 1813 (and the adm'r was Jesse Winner; no family mentioned), and Thomas was a resident of Philadelphia at the time of his marriage in 1780 (though he had property in Burlington and his wife was living there at the time of the marriage). John [of Clermont Co., OH] was born in 1786 in NJ but both parents were listed from PHIL on a 1798 land sale in Burlington. Most likely his father was Abraham, Jesse, or Samuel.
      Other Winner males about his age, said to be related to Abraham are: Isaac Sr. m. Hannah Searle 9 Nov 1776 in NJ (both from Bucks Co., PA) and Jacob m. Elizabeth Helling 29 Sep 1774 in NJ (both from Bucks Co., PA).
      Other unaccounted Winner males include:
      Amos m. Rebeca Cooper 1 May 1779.
      Isaac of Dover, Monmouth Co. [My note: This Isaac is probably the same who married Hannah Searle.]
      Still don't know where Jonathan and Isaac come in, but because they moved to Ohio with John and Hester, her father Joseph Mason, and also Benjamin moving on to IL with John and Hester, they have to have close family ties to this Burlington bunch. [My note: Jonathan and Isaac are sons of the first Isaac of Dover.]
      One last thing. Jonathan and Benjamin's neighbor in 1830 was Benjamin Doughty from Burlington. John and Joseph Winner were co-bondsmen on the estate of Yelverton Doughty. The adm'r was Thomas Doughty, possible brother of Benjamin Doughty and father of Abigail Doughty. [My note: this could be significant because it may be the only tie to Egg Harbor and Dover Winners even though these two clans were probably a generation or two apart as cousins originating from Bucks Co., PA.]
      I'm not too sure about the Lycoming Co. [PA] Winners fitting in here very closely. They seem to be more removed from this group. My gggrandmother (Isabell Lambert m. James L. Winner [My note: James, Benjamin, Jonathan, Isaac]) said the Winners had lived in Bucks Co., PA. It appears that the Bucks Co. Winners had NJ interests, most likely in Burlington Co., just across the river. (Ex: Isaac Sr. and Amos marriages above.)" [Ernestine Siegel in her books on James Winner purports him to be a son of Isaac Sr. of Bucks Co. - hence a brother to Abraham, John, and Isaac. KP]

      5. We have results of DNA testing comparing the southern NJ Winners to Dutch Winnes which confirms the two families are not related! Some emails on the subject:
      A. 7 May 2012 email from Roger Winner, a direct descendant of Pieter Winne, has who had done a DNA test. He notes: "I have spent much time researching all early Winners but in particular my Pieter Winne lines. In all of my research I have not found anything suggesting a common ancestor for the two lines. ... I am in the direct male line descending for Pieter ..."
      B. 9 May 2012 email from Roger Winner to Judy Winner . He notes: "The DNA tests provided the result I was looking for. Your husband and I do not share a common ancestor and therefore your line of Winners are not descended from Pieter Winne. Ancestry and Family Tree only have 32 of the 37 markers but I did not match 12 of the 32 markers."
      C. From an ancestry.com message board http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.winne/231.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx of 2009 from a Judith Winner: "Family cemetery in Pike Co,Illinois shows John Winner (b Jan. 18, 1787, d Aug. 9, 1860). DOD may be Aug 18,1860. Family history says he was from Hamilton, Ohio. Married Hester Mason, etc. My husband Richard Winner has a 37 dNa marker match with Maurice D. (Mike) Winner, Jr., from Gloucester Co., NJ. His line is Maurice D. Sr 1904-1974, Lawrence C. - 1874-1943, James R. - 1850-1929, Joseph Winner - 1822 - 1895."
      D. 19 Sep 2012 email from Judy Winner : "My husband Richard D. Winner is descended from Pike Co Illinois Winners. We have 37 marker Family Tree dNa. We heard from Maurice Dawson Winner who lives in Gloucester Co. NJ and Richard matches him.
      Richard's line is:
      John Winner (1787-1860)
      Samuel Winner (10-13-1810 10-15-1882)
      Thomas Winner (7-5-1849/after 1920)
      Samuel Eaves Winner (12-24-1873 - 1918-1920?)
      Warren Thomas Winner (6-25-1903/7-28-1988)
      Richard D. Winner (1947 -)
      I have emails from Roger rlwhershey@att.net who we shared dNa results which I will forward. [See above email from Roger dated 9 May 2012] Asked Richard's 70+ sister where her father lived (Warren) and she said on Dutch Creek. This is in Pike Co, IL where the Winner Cemetery is located. [Copy of DNA certificate and results in image file.]
      E. Email from Kris Winner, Jul 24, 2012. "Hi Kerry - thanks for sending your notes. It looks like you and I are on the same track to some extent. I have come to many of the same conclusions. I may have some bits that you don't - I have spent a lot of time in Trenton and in DC trolling through the archives. So, where you have notes on some of the births or deaths or marriages, I have copies of the actual documents, some of which have additional names included. I think I will go through your notes and add in red where I might have a document of interest and you can let me know if you have it or not. My line is probably through Abraham/John. You may have seen a post on the message board (see http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.winne/231.1.1.2.1/mb.ashx from a Judy Winner. The Maurice she mentions is my dad's cousin. I met him two years or so ago in North Carolina and got some great things from him on more recent relatives, and he told me he had done the dna thing and came up with a match to the Ohio crowd. I have not emailed her about her query, but might have something for her, specifically that two of John Winner's sons were on a jury with Hester Ann Mason's brother, Case Mason, making a "link" to the Great Egg Harbor crowd. I often wondered if this John was the son of Septimus that was unaccounted for in his will according to Kim Secrist on the message boards again. I don't have Septimus's will, I need to get that to see exactly what it says."
      F. 19 Sep 2012 email from me to Judy, Roger, Kris, and Karen Winner:
      "Your husband's DNA tests against Maurice Winner and Roger Winner confirm my research. I have no DNA tests to add since I am not of the Winner surname, but I do have extensive historical research which anticipated and surmised what you have found. Many have suspected, but I believe I am the first to come to the firm conclusion that the southern NJ Winners come from Bucks Co., PA and not the Dutch Winne line...
      Your second email today notes that Roger Winner, a confirmed descendant of Pieter Winne, has compared his DNA and it does not match your husband's, which I would have expected... Finally we have proof that the lines are not the same even though dozens of researchers have spent lifetimes on the subject. There continues to be much bad reporting connecting these two lines. We can now move beyond all that.
      Your exact match to Maurice Winner is no surprise to me... Kris has not provided me an exact ancestral line; however, you mention on your board posting: "His line is Maurice D. Sr 1904-1974, Lawrence C. - 1874-1943, James R. - 1850-1929, Joseph Winner - 1822 - 1895." The 1822 Joseph is a generation or two removed from the earliest Winners I connect, but he is definitely in our mix. I believe he may be the son of Joseph Winner, b. 1803, who had a brother John and Amos. Their father is in turn John Winner who married Millicent Mapes (and also married Hannah Carr before Millicent). This John is my database and has probably 3 brothers and 1 sister (all of which you will see on my database). Their father, I believe, is our first surmised ancestor Isaac Winner (1733-1781) who married Rebecca ___, all of Bucks Co. Of John's brothers, one was Isaac (Jr) (1755 Bucks Co., PA - 1819 Monmouth Co., NJ) who married twice. He is the progenitor of the all the Southeast NJ Winners. His first wife was Hannah Searls, who had several children including your John Winner who married Hester Mason ... The fact that your husband's DNA and Maurice's match would put the common ancestor at the original Isaac Sr. of Bucks Co. - who is the earliest ancestor I have surmised thus far. Now that the linkage is more certain, it would be good for you to continue to compare with other Bucks Co. Winner descendants. Isaac Sr. had another son James who stayed in the area and has numerous descendants in Lycoming Co., Pennsylvania. I would be great to test against that major branch and proof would be outstanding icing on the cake. I have emailed Karen Winner of the James Winner line with a copy of this email (she has also reviewed my research paper) and perhaps she can locate a suitable candidate on her branch for DNA testing."

      6. See notes of the earliest "generic" Winner for a transcript of the "The Ancestry & Descendants of James Winner of Sussex Co., N.J. & Lycoming Co., Pa.," first edition; Editor: Ernestine Siegel, 1906 Watrous Avenue, Tampa, Florida, 33606; 1969; revised 1970; privately printed with copy in my possession, Preface, pp. 1-15, and Bibliography. This is a partial excerpt which deals with John Winner who married Millicent Mapes:
      "THE GLOUCESTER CO., N.J. WINNERS.
      1787 - The will of Joseph Mapes of Great Egg Harbour, Gloucester co., N.J. mentions his daughter Melicent Winner, his grandson Joseph Winner, and his son in law John Winner.
      1793 - The will of Melscent Winner of Great Egg Harbour mentions her two sons, Amos and John Winner.
      1803 - Joseph Winner married Millicent Caveller on February 2nd.
      1806 - On the estate of Yelverton Doughty, John Winner, Sr. is executor, with Joseph Winner a witness.
      1806 - On January 1st, Joseph Winner was appointed postmaster at Somer's Point, Gloucester Co.
      1810 - John Winner Jr. was appointed postmaster at Somer's Pt, July 1st.
      1811 - Joseph Winner was appointed postmaster, Somer's Pt.
      1812 - John Winner married Abigail Doughty May 9th
      1813 - Samuel Winner married Mary Thorn March 30th
      1813 - William Winner died in Waterford Twp., Gloucester Co., leaving a will - File 2973H.
      1816 - Abigail Winner married Joseph Venable February 23
      1823 - John Winner Jr. died - File 2393H.
      1824 - Benjamin Winner married Eliza Barrett February 12.
      1832 - At Egg Harbour Twp., Abby Winner had 3 children between 4 and 16 years in school.
      1837 - Atlantic County was formed from Gloucester Co.
      1841 - Abraham Winner of Millford, N.J. married Eliza Ann Gaunt on December 9th.
      At Zion Methodist Church in Bargaintown, Atlantic Co. are buried Thomas D. Winner 1818-1868 and wife Margaret D. Winner 1829-1864. Their son Thomas S. died 1855
      age 15 mo., their son John died 1859 age 9, and their daughter Margaret died 1912 age 52.
      At the Methodist Cemetery in Williamstown, Gloucester Co. is buried Joseph Winner 1822-1898 and wife Mary B. Van Horn Winner 1824-1895. Their son Daniel 1844-1863 served in the Civil War. Their son James 1850-1929 married Mary A. Dawson. Their daughter Sara 1853-1910 married Daniel Dawson Jr.
      A Samuel Winner born 1817 enlisted in 1881 as a N.J. Civil War soldier. At Berlin, N.J. is buried a David Winner, 1826-1909, Civil War veteran, wife Maryann M. Winner 1831-1889..."